As someone who has squishy bits, I can’t help but look at the models when I’m looking at photographs of clothing. When they are roughly the same shape as you, there’s no real need to look at anything other the garments, as the way it fits them is probably going to be the way it fits you. However, if you’re taller/shorter/fatter/thinner then you’ll need to assess where the differences lie in order to work out if a garment will suit your body. If I see a pencil skirt on a model with a very low hip to waist ratio, I know it probably won’t fit me. If I see cropped trousers on a tall model, I know they’ll most likely be ankle length on my short legs. When it comes to underwear though, the process is the same but my questions will be different. How will that suspender belt look on someone without a flat stomach? How will that strappy bra look on someone who is… soft? How can I tell if the underwear is only photographed on toned flawless models?
In an interview with the London Evening Standard’s ES Magazine (published on 22nd September), Agent Provocateur’s creative director, Sarah Shotton, speaks about her first bra buying experience as an F-cup teenager being soul destroying. She goes on to say that her aim with the brand is to make women feel good about themselves, and that she wants to reach out to more women with the current collection. According to the article, AP’s bras are currently available in sizes from 32A to 36F and knickers range from UK 6-8 to UK 14-16, but Shotton would like to move into larger sizes. This is wonderful news, as women with a love of lingerie and enough money to buy from a luxury brand come in all shapes and sizes. Just look at the wonderful UK independent brand Harlow & Fox for an example of deliciously luxurious full bust lingerie that is very much in demand.
Apparently every prototype garment at Agent Provocateur is fitted on Shotton, as well as the fit models that all brands use in this part of the process. This tells me that all the styles they sell should flatter a larger bust but, confusingly, not all their styles are available in the larger sizes. For example, there are only two styles available in my size (32F) but there are 42 styles available in the UK’s average bra size (36D). The ES Magazine profile piece goes on to say that:
Shotton credits Corré with the lesson in understanding that ‘lumps and bumps’ can be sexy. In contrast, she says she finds the honed, hairless aesthetic that often prevails (notably on the Victoria’s Secret catwalk) quite scary. ‘I know, from being a young girl, looking at magazines and going: “I want to be like that”… I don’t think that is sexy and I don’t think it’s real and I actually think that curves are much sexier and wholesome is much sexier. I think it’s much more attractive when women eat properly and look after themselves.’
Aside from the massive amount of judgement on which types of bodies are attractive, and the assumption that curvy is automatically more healthy – I could write an entire blog post on that alone! – the thing that strikes me most about Shotton’s comments is that what she says and what her brand does are two entirely different things. I’m the first to admit that I’m not the world’s biggest fan of Agent Provocateur. I adored their cheeky provocative brand persona in the 1990s and early 2000s but, for me, I felt that they lost their sexiness in 2010 and blogged about it rather angrily. But I try to approach each new season with fresh eyes and a hope that, one day AP will realise that diversity is sexy and also good for business.
Take a look at their AW16 lookbook. The lingerie is gorgeous. Lace, embroidery, sheer fabrics, fishnet and leopard print all look luxurious but work well styled with a classic rock ‘n’ roll edge. However, the models are definitely not what I would have expected, given Shotton’s recent interview. They are all extremely tall, slender and lean with exactly the same ‘honed, hairless aesthetic’ that she said she dislikes. I wasn’t expecting armpit hair, but the blatant crotch shots in the images released in July and August clearly show that the models have little or no pubic hair. There are a number of models involved in this shoot, so why wasn’t one of them curvier? Why didn’t one of them have an athletic build? Why do they all look like they’re just back from Coachella and utterly bored at the sheer number of their Instagram followers who requested a selfie?
I’m very pleased that not all the models in the lookbook shoot are white (although using a single model of colour and more shots of the white blonde model than anyone else is arguably less diverse than Victoria’s Secret), but they do all still look like they’ve come out of the same mould. Shotton raised the same issues regarding body image and her desire to appeal to a wider audience back in April when I saw her ‘in conversation’ at the V&A as part of the opening weekend of the Undressed exhibition, of which Agent Provocateur is sponsor. In the Q&A after the talk, a woman of colour and an AP fan in a wheelchair both asked Shotton about diversity in the models used by the brand, and she seemed very keen to take their comments on board.
It’s not just the lookbook that isn’t yet showing the results of the creative director’s desire to appeal to more women. I’ve scrolled through all the product shots in the lingerie and nightwear sections of the website and the models, although beautiful, are rather ‘samey’ in their look. Compare them to independent brands like Playful Promises, Dottie’s Delights, and What Katie Did and you can instantly see that they are massively out of touch, and also very wrong if they think that venturing away from the fashion-norm will be bad for business. Deeds not words, Ms Shotton. Make this happen and I bet you’ll increase your customer base.
All images via Agent Provocateur.
APs biggest knickers are so not a 14/16 but they do a 36 back which is common amongst people who are a 14/16. Also they use very slim models but don’t do a 30 back! I’ve had to rescue friends from their stores when they’ve been pushing them into an ill fitting £500 bra.
Also I’ve just sold off my vintage AP. They used to have a wider range of sizes (or at least more in an F cup)
Great article! I often notice companies paying lip service to the hot issue of the day, then going back to exactly what they were doing before.
I’m not a huge fan of the ‘vacant stare’ school of modelling either; I find it a bit disconcerting and I assume it’s intended to suggest a blank canvas for the buyer to concentrate on the product, but if anything I find it makes me feel less interested?
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Ap have long since lost my interest – who markets to women with a bust that only goes up to an F? And sadly H&F is not that much better… they seem to boast of catering to a fuller bust… Yes I applaud you for having some ranges going up to a G cup – but when you were saddled with a J cup by nature then it feels a little mocking when a G is considered to be catering to those of significant mammary glands… The choices are still sadly lacking, but at least Bravissimo for all their faults carry SOME lingerie that doesn’t look like it was designed in an industrial era đŸ™‚
This tumblr post of mine might help you https://t.co/j7meF4sA5q
I shall peruse all the links – but sadly although some do a J cup… not many do a 32J… and in that size the shape of the cup HAS to match your boob shape or you end up looking like a freakazoid Madonna backing dancer from the 80s…
I’m not saying they do not exist, merely that at a J cup they become rare, finding a good fit, even rarer! Mainly I guess because the selection is smaller to start with – I would expect that it’s less noticeable when you can pick and choose from almost any design in a store, “oh that one doesn’t suit? shucks pick another from these 50…” is a little less stressy than “oh these 4 make you look like torpedo boobs with bits hanging out the wrong place? Guess it’s this bright pinks one that fits awesomely, tough that you don’t “DO” pink really…”
Tine Kongsgaard hopefully it’ll let you know about some new bras! I find that Polish bras are amazing
Your comment about the underwire – I have to say that sadly my handwashed, greatly cared for bra’s also suffer from this kebab tendency. Try convincing anyone that it’s only ever been handwashed to cover it under any guarantee though! I don’t know if it’s an issue with the size that applies different pressures to the material or what but I buy and chuck probably on average a bra every 2-3 months because it betrays me and stabs me (usually at very inconvenient times!) – I’m about to qualify for my 2nd free bra from Bravissimo since their loyalty scheme started… And trust me they really really are only hand washed! đŸ™
Tine Kongsgaard I’d be taking mine back under the sale of goods act if they died that quickly. I think some credit cards do 90 day refund protection too
The problem with bra’s is that you can end up arguing about how they have been maintained – if they have been machine washed then they won’t cover them – and frankly arguing with a sales assistant about whether I wash them by hand or machine isn’t one I enjoy having – tried it twice and usually they will insist I must have machine washed it…
Some of the polish links do look good so I shall book mark them đŸ™‚
Tine Kongsgaard I love my Ewa Michalak bras. I’d recommend going up one cup size x
noted |LOL
There are so many blogs on Polish bras. Really worth a google if you decide to order a bra to check the fit
that’s another bug of mine – I like to try them on… but obviously ordering from abroad it’s far tricker… and soon turns pricey if they don’t fit đŸ™
This country really needs to sort itself out and start catering properly for us bigger girls đŸ™‚
The UK really is getting better. The USA is truly awful.
I want to just say the H&F are a tiny brand, so they will be limited with their sizes. 30-38 DD-G is still a wide size range and it definitely IS fuller bust, but there’s always going to be someone left out.
I’m not saying they are not a small brand – I picked on them because Lori mentioned them specifically in her blog đŸ™‚
But I would dispute that 30-38 DD-G is a wide range – it may at best be an OK range aimed towards the upper mid range bust đŸ™‚
Super insanely pretty – but only if you fall in a small size range really… đŸ™‚
25 bras in each style is a wide range for a small brand. And DD+ is considered fuller bust. When you get above a G that’s a whole different ballgame, hence why there aren’t many brands that do.
Lets conservatively say that when manufacturing in small quantities, and in luxury fabrics, a bra will cost you £25 just to get it into stock and thats not including the fixed costs of running a business or posting out orders. You need to have usually at least 5 of each in stock, but most factories wouldnt let you make less than 12 of a size. so at a minimum, you’d have to spend 25x25x5 – 3125 – just to get bras for one style into stock. More likely you’re spending 25x25x12 – £7,500 – plus matching bits plus you need to hold stock of half a dozen or so ranges usually. So for your version of a “small” size range a new company, self-financed, will need to raise in excess of 100k. And that, as a I say, is a conservative estimate.
Stacking a few issues on top of that; both the construction and components get more limited, harder to find and harder to work with over a G cup so the price would go up (unless you’re a large brand and roll an entire ranges development into one average price, or you’re a vertically integrated company like the Polish brands and can do some manufacturing tricks).
You’ll also get an increasingly low return on each size as you progress towards fringe sizes, due to their relative rarity. Large companies can manage this because their footfall is enormous so 3% of their customers being size xy will still be hundreds or even thousands; the same is not true when you have a few hundred visitors a day to your website at most.
Tangentally I would like to note that I have had staff memebers who were measured as a 28K in Bravissimo but seemed completely fine in an L Van Doren Bralet or a 36F Frauelin Annie bra. It’s just marginally possible that people are using different systems. Feel free to use the one that works best for you, naturally, but its worth knowing for experimentation purposes, I suspect.
I tend to suggest Elila, Comexim and Ewa Michalek (sp?) for over a G cup. I think Miss Mandalay also do past a G now in some styles. There are more suggestions on The Lingerie Addict.
Catherine Clavering I’m a 30 back at most in every brand and I’ve tried sister sizing to 32G but it just doesn’t work for me. I’ve posted lots of suggestions above though.
Sure, it’s not for everyone, do what works for you as an individual.
With thousands of customers though, we can see a pattern of an awful lot of returns because bras vary so widely; its quite interesting.
I think the majority of my point was about the practical maths of financing even a conservative range. Really makes one appreciate the miracles the Polish brands manage through making in-house.
Catherine Clavering yup. See also buttress and snatch
She also completely contradicted herself by removing a size 5 (which is supposedly a 14-16, but fits like a 12-14) from most of the briefs and thongs last season. Some new styles have 5s but not all. Disappointing.
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Thanks for the mention! Do you think she has a person/people to answer to, which makes it difficult to put those thoughts into action? But I just don’t buy that – if anyone can do it, AP can. They probably will now that other brands are expanding.
I reckon that their shareholders hold a lot of sway in these areas… their current, narrower size range probably accounts for 80% of their sales in the wider range. It doesn’t excuse it though, especially when a company of their size has more than enough resources to do more. It’s a bit galling to see Sarah Shotton make these comments when there’s zero reciprocation.
I’m amazed she fits the bras on herself, too. Unless that’s just the initial sample.
If she fits on herself that will probably skew the overall fit anyway… bad habit of many designers, me included!
AP bras consistently come up small. I always go up to a 32D and I normally wear a 30D.
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Excellent piece from @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur’s most recent campaign: https://t.co/oH4CFvOVN9 https://t.co/Udwkng5d7G
RT @lingerie_addict: Excellent piece from @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur’s most recent campaign: https://t.co/oH4CFvOVN9 https://t.co/U…
RT @lingerie_addict: Excellent piece from @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur’s most recent campaign: https://t.co/oH4CFvOVN9 https://t.co/U…
RT @lingerie_addict: Excellent piece from @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur’s most recent campaign: https://t.co/oH4CFvOVN9 https://t.co/U…
I love this piece by @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur and diversity in body shapes
https://t.co/LGrddARmX2
RT @lingerie_addict: Excellent piece from @lipsticklori on Agent Provocateur’s most recent campaign: https://t.co/oH4CFvOVN9 https://t.co/U…
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I agree. In America, my size doesn’t even exist. Like you, I wear a 32F…even when thin or chubby. For years, until I could afford Simone Perele and Chantelle, I wore the wrong size. When living in France, 40 years ago, as a student, I convinced my Mom 34C to fork over for a properly fitting soutien-gorge Thanks to your links, I will check out some other UK brands.
When shopping on EBay, I first discovered AP. What a disappointment to go from these amazing vintage pieces, to the current offerings which as you say, limit the colors and styles of bras in my size.
Like many American women, I have pudge hanging over a transverse abdominal scar. I escaped having any C-sections, but right now almost HALF of American women giving birth will have one. That is a whole other subject, but surgical delivery has created a huge group of women with Panniculi, sing. Panniculus, or a stomach apron. Some women have just a pooch, or a small amount of,overhanging skin, but others need strong stomach support. When trying to wear thongs, bikini pants, etc, I find that the elastic sits right on the scar (c-section, hysterectomy, or other pelvic surgery), while the skin and or fat spill over the top of the panties. By excluding designs which take this into account, lingerie designers have lost half their American Market, and 25-30% of the UK market ( might be lower).
How about a pair of lime green girdle panties with pink netting, suspenders, and a really cute push up bra to match in ALL sizes. In my case, in the right one piece bathing suit, I look pretty good for 58 with 4 surgical scars above my pubic bone, so why can’t I find a really sexy, and pretty, pale pink lace body suit that comes in my bra size, and has a secret tummy panel? Or even, of all things, a corset. Since when were corsets, Merry Widows, long line bras, designed only for a 34 C. Put a zipper in the front, hang suspenders from it…and have matching silk tap pants or a ‘step-in’ to wear over it.
In order to feel sexy in bed, I have started buying vintage silk nightgowns on eBay, Etsy, etc, and even on those sites have paid $250…(200 pounds) for a beautiful gown or slip. My solution is to wear those and at some point lose the straps, so my tummy is covered, and well…enough said. While these garments are gorgeous, and often hand made, they do not stand up to repeated (hand)washing and wearing; AND I’m still not wearing something sexy under my clothes other than the bra. I do buy my granny panties from Hanro, as if paying more for lovely beige combed cotton, will make it sexier. In not offering balconette bras to go with the granny panties, and adding a little satin, Hanro loses me as a customer for any other garment as well.
Now I have written my own blog…LOL…I am just thrilled to read somewhere that the anorexic models, with 15 year old skin, have got to (mostly) go.
Keep up the reporting, and luckily or money is where our bodies are because I’m not buying $80:thongs, ever.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read and comment đŸ™‚